[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to Lockheed Martin Space Makers, the podcast that takes you out of this world for an inside look at some of our most challenging and innovative missions. My name is Ben, and I'll be your host.

[00:00:14] In season two, we explore Lockheed Martin's bold new vision of a future we call "Space 2050." We partnered with our Advanced Technology Center to bring you an inside look at the innovations and technologies we are developing to make that future a reality. Because getting there is just the beginning.

[00:00:35] Lockheed Martin is working to make it possible for humans to live and thrive on other planets and Moons. Earthlings will have to obtain a level of independence from Earth to make this reality possible. My colleague Natalya Oleksik takes a closer at how humankind will "untether from Earth" and become Spacelings. 

[00:00:56] Natalya: Welcome to Space Makers, where we're gonna take a look at untethering from earth. I'm sitting here with Kate Watts. Kate, can you tell us your name and your title and a little bit about what you do?

[00:01:05] Kate Watts: My name is Kate Watts. I'm our director of Advanced Programs for our Commercial Civil Space line of business at Lockheed Martin Space. And so, what that really means for us is I lead our technology development process for our market segments. So that includes our human and robotic space exploration technologies and missions, our weather and earth science technologies and missions, and commercial communications.

[00:01:29] Natalya: So you come in the door every day, what is your priority with all that's on your plate in terms of advancing space?

[00:01:35] Kate Watts: You know, every day is different and exciting and challenging. And that's the fun part about it. Part of the challenge is what are the priorities today, right? We are creating markets. There's so many things that need to be developed and worked on. So you have to determine what are the most impactful things that will benefit humanity, that will help us take the next step, that will lead to others, that will get people excited.

[00:02:00] So it's identifying those things. They're the most needed capabilities to advance humanities, exploration and settlement of space, and of course the climate and, you know, how can we help there and understand our planet better to make life better. So identifying those things, those technologies. And then how can we bring those things to market quickly? And how do we get that work done efficiently for our teams and for people?

[00:02:25] So, you're doing that, all of that on the cusp of a major sea change in the world and for humanity where we are on the cusp of developing a space economy, which will eventually result in colonies on the moon, transportation on the moon, and then trade routes between Earth and the moon. And then beyond there, to Mars.

[00:02:45] Natalya: Tell us a little bit about one of our biggest challenges that we see, which is to get up there and do all that, first we have to find an efficient way to untether from earth? And is that possible?

[00:02:55] Kate Watts: That's definitely what we are on the cusp of. I think, you know, it is time humanity wants to go and wants to explore. And we have the technologies and capabilities today to do that. There are things that we're working that will make that, more efficient, more practical, more cost effective for more people to go. There are lots of, if you will, sort of tipping points, things that will enable that. That sort of have to happen in order.

[00:03:23] But, you know, the lowering of launch costs is certainly has been a big bonus that's driving a lot of interest in and funding into the industry, which is enabling a lot of the exciting things you see today. But what we need to settle the moon and Mars, and to really go beyond the sort of flags and footprints that you see and that we talk about, they're the same things you need on earth to explore a new place, as we've done, as human's done in the past.

[00:03:49] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:03:50] Kate Watts: You need key infrastructure type pieces that will allow the collective creativity and ingenuity of, humanity to find business opportunities in space, things that you can do in space that benefit people on Earth in ways that you can't do them on Earth, right?

[00:04:08] So, infrastructure is needed, to get to your question. Humanity will need power on the moon. Communications on the moon and around Mars. You know, that's where we'll go first, is expand into what's called cislunar space. You know, and we'll, begin to branch out further and further from there. So power, communications, water, shelter, and habitation, all of those things that you need on Earth to sort of meet the basic, you know, lowest levels of [crosstalk 00:03:39]

[00:04:33] Natalya: Pyramids.

[00:04:33] Kate Watts: ... of human needs. That's right.

[00:04:34] Natalya: Yes.

[00:04:35] Kate Watts: That's right.

[00:04:36] Natalya: What, are there any particular technologies that you can talk about right now that you are certain are going to provide that materials we're developing, modes of transportation that we're working on such as the partnership we have with GM that will start that happening?

[00:04:55] Kate Watts: Yes. Absolutely. And we're working on a lot of things that I'm really excited about. So you touched on one, the partnership with GM. And that's really all about mobility, right? On other planetary bodies. And so, you know, if you wanna do much at all in terms of science, or certainly settlement, you've got to have the ability to move around and to move other things around. You need the ability to explore and better understand these places that will go to map the terrain.

[00:05:23] You know, one of the key things that we'll have to have to truly, in the long-term, be effective at settling, really developing these other places is we'll have to the ability to utilize local resources to stay there, right? And-

[00:05:37] Natalya: Are there local resources on the moon?

[00:05:39] Kate Watts: There are. There are. [laughs] And so what I mean by that is the, what's called lunar regolith, the dirt, if you will, on the moon is full of things that can be extracted. There are metals and minerals materials that can be broken down through processes that we're developing to then use to construct, to build, et cetera. And then there's a lot of water ice on the moon, fortunately, which we didn't even know until not that long ago. Right? So it's, you need mobility-

[00:06:06] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:06:06] Kate Watts: ... to go find the water ice and we're the biggest deposits of it. And that's thought to be in, and what's called PSRs or permanently shadowed regions that never see sunlight. And so there's gonna be a lot more of, that water ice there. We've gotta have mobility to find the resources we need that are the best places to set up shop, if you will-

[00:06:25] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:06:25] Kate Watts: ... to build, what's called an in situ resource utilization plant-

[00:06:29] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:06:29] Kate Watts: ... for example. Where you would mine effectively that water ice, and separate it out so that you can create water for consumables and hydrogen for refueling, and oxygen to breathe, and all of those things. So there'll be a whole value chain around the sort of lunar water economy.

[00:06:46] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:06:46] Kate Watts: And so you'll need mobility to do that. You'll need a lot of power to do that. So space nuclear is another technology that is gonna be really important. Solar power is great. You know, every technology has pros and cons, limiting factors.

[00:07:00] Natalya: Just like on earth.

[00:07:01] Kate Watts: Just like on earth.

[00:07:02] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:07:02] Kate Watts: And so we're doing, exciting things with solar and batteries. Definitely through the GM partnership. The GM batteries are, phenomenal technology that'll represent a leap out there but-

[00:07:12] Natalya: Being developed right now.

[00:07:13] Kate Watts: Being developed right now.

[00:07:14] Natalya: Okay.

[00:07:15] Kate Watts: Yes. Yes. For use on this lunar mobility vehicle that's coming up. So-

[00:07:19] Natalya: Are they changing the paradigm of batteries? This is a tangent, but I know that batteries are, until we get the, what is it? The perpetual battery? We're still very tethered to other types of fuel.

[00:07:28] Kate Watts: Yes.

[00:07:29] Natalya: So-

[00:07:30] Kate Watts: It just-

[00:07:30] Natalya: ... leaps and battery technology are gonna be very enabling, right?

[00:07:34] Kate Watts: Yes. And you'll have the capability to do things like generate solar power and then store more of it in your battery, right? Be able to drive longer distances, power up other things, charge other pieces of infrastructure, which minimizes risk to your equipment and to the crew who were up there. I mean, just think about if someone were to just drop you in the desert power is one of the, critical first things that you need to do anything, right? To survive.

[00:07:59] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:08:00] Kate Watts: And so they've got some impressive technology that's gonna allow us to do things we can't do today. And then we'll be able to use back on earth. Right? And so that's another sort of thing to touch on, is how all of this R&D development that seems like it's for space or for fun, really, not only does it, you know, creates jobs and it's inspirational and all those things that we talk about, but it's directly applicable back here on earth and will enhance people's daily lives and ways that they, most folks don't even think about.

[00:08:29] Natalya: And what's interesting about what you're talking about is nothing that you have mentioned yet is not impossible. You're saying we know there's water up there-

[00:08:35] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:08:36] Natalya: ... we know what we can do with that. It can provide one of the fundamental human needs, power. We get the hardware for our lunar rover up there. And we can power it. We know we can do that. Could we do it without water? If the moon had no water, could this happen at all?

[00:08:50] Kate Watts: If the moon had no water, it would be a lot more expensive, a lot-

[00:08:55] Natalya: Okay.

[00:08:55] Kate Watts: ... harder. You'd have to, you'd have to ship it from somewhere else. Right? The fact that there is water on the moon is what makes us able to do this now-

[00:09:01] Natalya: Okay.

[00:09:01] Kate Watts: ... is what I would say. If you wanna do anything more than a short stint-

[00:09:05] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:09:06] Kate Watts: …you need that. Right? And that's key, the water on the moon to refueling. Actually, it's so expensive-

[00:09:11] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:09:12] Kate Watts: ... to get things off the surface of earth because of the massive gravity that it will be much cheaper eventually when we have this lunar water economy set up to, to refuel in space and then go onto Mars or wherever we wanna go. Much cheaper. So that's a tipping point for even broader exploration, right?

[00:09:31] Natalya: So all this, by the way, depends on communications. Can't do this in a communications vacuum anymore than we can do it in a water vacuum or a power vacuum.

[00:09:41] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:09:41] Natalya: Let's talk a little bit about what challenges that poses. Communications latency between earth and the moon. And then of course, earth and Mars is a whole other ballgame.

[00:07:15] Kate Watts: Yes. Yes. For use on this lunar mobility vehicle that's coming up. So-

[00:07:19] Natalya: Are they changing the paradigm of batteries? This is a tangent, but I know that batteries are, until we get the, what is it? The perpetual battery? We're still very tethered to other types of fuel.

[00:07:28] Kate Watts: Yes.

[00:07:29] Natalya: So-

[00:07:30] Kate Watts: It just-

[00:07:30] Natalya: ... leaps and battery technology are gonna be very enabling, right?

[00:07:34] Kate Watts: Yes. And you'll have the capability to do things like generate solar power and then store more of it in your battery, right? Be able to drive longer distances, power up other things, charge other pieces of infrastructure, which minimizes risk to your equipment and to the crew who were up there. I mean, just think about if someone were to just drop you in the desert power is one of the, critical first things that you need to do anything, right? To survive.

[00:07:59] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:08:00] Kate Watts: And so they've got some impressive technology that's gonna allow us to do things we can't do today. And then we'll be able to use back on Earth. Right? And so that's another sort of thing to touch on, is how all of this R&D development that seems like it's for space or for fun, really, not only does it, you know, creates jobs and it's inspirational and all those things that we talk about, but it's directly applicable back here on earth and will enhance people's daily lives and ways that they, most folks don't even think about.

[00:08:29] Natalya: And what's interesting about what you're talking about is nothing that you have mentioned yet is not impossible. You're saying we know there's water up there-

[00:08:35] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:08:36] Natalya: ... we know what we can do with that. It can provide one of the fundamental human needs, power. We get the hardware for our lunar rover up there. And we can power it. We know we can do that. Could we do it without water? If the moon had no water, could this happen at all?

[00:08:50] Kate Watts: If the moon had no water, it would be a lot more expensive, a lot-

[00:08:55] Natalya: Okay.

[00:08:55] Kate Watts: ... harder. You'd have to, you'd have to ship it from somewhere else. Right? The fact that there is water on the moon is what makes us able to do this now-

[00:09:01] Natalya: Okay.

[00:09:01] Kate Watts: ... is what I would say. If you wanna do anything more than a short stint-

[00:09:05] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:09:06] Kate Watts: …you need that. Right? And that's key, the water on the moon to refueling. Actually, it's so expensive-

[00:09:11] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:09:12] Kate Watts: ... to get things off the surface of earth because of the massive gravity that it will be much cheaper eventually when we have this lunar water economy set up to, to refuel in space and then go onto Mars or wherever we wanna go. Much cheaper. So that's a tipping point for even broader exploration, right?

[00:09:31] Natalya: So all this, by the way, depends on communications. Can't do this in a communications vacuum anymore than we can do it in a water vacuum or a power vacuum.

[00:09:41] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:09:41] Natalya: Let's talk a little bit about what challenges that poses. Communications latency between earth and the moon. And then of course, earth and Mars is a whole other ballgame.

[00:11:38] Natalya: Yes.

[00:11:39] Kate Watts: So we'll have to have machine learning and autonomy, mobility, artificial intelligence. But to circle back to your communications question, you know, so we can't do much about the lag itself, but-

[00:11:50] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:11:50] Kate Watts: ... what we are developing and what we can do is optimize the way that information is packaged, what information is sent back, what needs to be sent back.

[00:12:01] Natalya: Be discerning and customize the information itself?

[00:12:03] Kate Watts: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:12:05] Natalya: Okay.

[00:12:05] Kate Watts: And then the way in which it is sent. So bandwidth, for example. Today, the majority of communications are, it's radio communication, right?

[00:12:12] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:12:12] Kate Watts: And so new technologies are, for example, laser communications that will dramatically improve the bandwidth and the way in which we send those signals. And so later on, you'll be able to get, in theory, high-definition video versus these, you know, still images, right?

[00:12:26] Natalya: How advanced are laser communications? That's a game changer too, right? Radio communications. What was that? The turn of the last century?

[00:12:32] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:12:32] Natalya: Is, tell us a little bit about that if you can?

[00:12:34] Kate Watts: Yeah. So it's in development, I would say. In some aspects, I would say it's in early phases of development, but the rate of acceleration is, you know, is, it's speeding up. So it'll take less time than we think to develop some of these highly advanced technologies, I'll put it that way.

[00:12:49] One thing I'm impressed with every day at Lockheed Martin is the ingenuity of our teams, right? When the, mission is clear, we have a need for this capability, right? You put a problem in front of these team of folks and it is impressive how quickly we can come up with the solution. We're to us limited by, sometimes it's the time to develop, is about the funding we have or-

[00:13:08] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:13:08] Kate Watts: ... or, you know, when the customer needs it.

[00:13:10] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:13:10] Kate Watts: But a lot of these technologies we could have within the decade.

[00:13:14] Natalya: I heard Rob Chambers say about the insight a couple of years ago. He said, you know, keep in mind we have all of the fundamental science. It's just a matter of bringing it to the problem.

[00:13:24] Kate Watts: Yes.

[00:13:24] Natalya: Working the problem with the tools, the tools are there.

[00:13:26] Kate Watts: Yes. Absolutely. I, if you think about what we're trying to do in space, there's a lot of ways. To get somewhere, there are a lot of different architectures, is the word that we use, that you could attempt. When we focus on, okay, this is how we want to do it, and then just go about solving those engineering problems, progress can happen much quicker-

[00:13:44] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:13:45] Kate Watts: ... than people realize. And often does. And then there'll be a pivot in an architecture and we approach it differently, kind of thing.

[00:13:50] Natalya: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:51] Kate Watts: But we have the building blocks we need to do all the things that we're talking about today.

[00:13:55] Natalya: It's not like we're sitting 75 years ago. We're not even sure how to work with radio waves, right? Or 80 years ago, I guess.

[00:14:02] Kate Watts: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:14:03] Natalya: You are saying all that's there, what impedes us for moving fast on this? Is it all economics or is it also human awareness and will?

[00:14:12] Kate Watts: You know, I think human awareness and will drives the economics to some degree, I'll say. But it's so... It's both of those things. It's the pull to go sometimes, right?

[00:14:20] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:14:21] Kate Watts: ... but the answers are there. And so, you know, it's very expensive, because of the risk. You have to buy down that risk and make it safe. And you don't wanna work for years on something and then have it be unsuccessful. So there's really an ongoing effort to what's the right level of risk to take so that we can make progress quicker? How can we optimize and streamline things so that we get these infrastructure components up there faster?

[00:14:45] And, you know, in the past, it's, there have been fewer customers, if you will, in the space market. And so progress was slower in some ways, which makes sense. But now what we're seeing is really this opportunity for services. And there is more interest, right? And there are broader customer base, which enables the economics to be a little bit different.

[00:15:04] And so you can offer different things, move quicker, and suggest to your customers, here's what we'd like to do. You know, it's easier for somebody to say, yes, I'd like to buy that service than I'll fund the whole mission. So this concept of public-private partnerships and the government trying to help, you know, stand up the concept of a commercial economy is going to allow us to move faster.

[00:15:25] So we're really doing that in concert with NASA and with our other customers. And so that's been a challenge in the past, but it is very quickly moving to an accelerated world of venture capital and a commercial, international governments, U.S. government customer base.

[00:15:41] Everything you're talking about with the technology available to us with the increasing amount of entrance into this industry that are enabling us to get up to space faster, Why do we go, why do we go up to space?

[00:15:54] That's such an excellent question. And this is one that I love to answer and talk about. Because it's... there's multiple reasons that people often don't think about. What we talk about a lot is, well, wow, it's so inspirational, you know, and it inspires people back home and to get into STEM, you know, science and engineering fields. But it's so much more than that. Right?

[00:16:15] If you think about humanity, right? Humanity, we just have this drive. It's in our DNA to go, to explore, to learn, we're curious. But I think there's more than that. If you look back over time, what has happened is that it's like there's this subconscious. We know that when we go, we'll learn new things that will help us, that will benefit us and improve our lives. And so we don't always know what we're going to find or in what way-

[00:16:41] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:16:42] Kate Watts: ... this exploring is going to help, but we're driven to do it. And we're curious. And inevitably, what you find is that it helps us. And what do I mean by that? Despite now that, you know, we're all so connected to the news and the world, and the negative press often shocks us, right?

[00:16:56] Natalya: Oh yes.

[00:16:56] Kate Watts: So that's what we consume. But the facts are, and there's much written about this, that by pretty much every measurable way, life for humanity now, for the average person, for the majority of people, is much better than it was in previous generation.

[00:17:10] Natalya: 100 years ago.

[00:17:10] Kate Watts: That's right.

[00:17:11] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:17:11] Kate Watts: Healthcare is better, communication, but those fundamental needs are better met. And there is less violence and all those things. So what has driven that to a large degree is technology, right? The ability to communicate differently. And as I said, medical advancements, right? So it's all those things that you think about.

[00:17:28] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:17:28] Kate Watts: But technology improves our lives on average. It creates new complexities often, right?

[00:17:33] Natalya: So-

[00:17:33] Kate Watts: That we have to navigate.

[00:17:34] Natalya: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:17:35] Kate Watts: But on average, that's the reality. So, circling all the way back here, why do we go? Research and development technology. With the difficult challenges that you have in space, you are solving problems, coming up with technologies for one mission, if you will, but they are used back here on earth to improve and advance daily life in literally thousands of ways that people do not think of about in their daily life.

[00:18:01] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:18:02] Kate Watts: And that's what I love to, to talk about and highlight. So I'll give you an example. Very few people probably know, but NASA, for example, has a spinoff. They have a division that is dedicated to taking technologies that have been developed for space and commercializing those, spinning them off into daily life, other industries. There are over 1500. There's a publication out there that highlights all those things.

[00:18:27] Natalya: I had no idea and I work here. [laughs]

[00:18:29] Kate Watts: It's fascinating, right?

[00:18:30] Natalya: I mean not at NASA, but I work at Lockheed. So I had no idea.

[00:18:33] Kate Watts: Yes.

[00:18:34] Natalya: Yes.

[00:18:34] Kate Watts: And I think the public to a large degree isn't aware of that. Although they do put the information out there. I mean, it's stuff like memory foam mattresses and-

[00:18:41] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:18:42] Kate Watts: ... cochlear implants-

[00:18:43] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:18:43] Kate Watts: ... and cameras and sensor technologies that are still in our iPhones today. It's scratch resistance sunglasses, life support systems, water filtration. Literally, it's thousands of technologies. And those things are used in our daily life, and they improve daily life, if you look at the course of humanity. So why do we go further? Because there will be thousands more things that we will develop. And it's like, we talked about earlier, the battery technology-

[00:19:12] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:19:12] Kate Watts: ... is going to improve sensing and camera technologies, artificial intelligence, autonomy.

[00:19:18] Natalya: Biomedical technologies.

[00:19:20] Kate Watts: That's a great one to highlight.

[00:19:22] Natalya: Huge, right? Huge developments in anti-gravity environments, right?

[00:19:25] Kate Watts: Absolutely. It's fascinating on the International Space Station, it's basically a lab, right?

[00:19:29] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:19:29] Kate Watts: And there are hundred experiments in any given time, probably more, that the astronauts are... That's what a lot of their time is used for. And so are, testing different ways of manufacturing or doing different things. And there have been a couple of business cases, things identified, and this is public information out there, ways in which you can manufacture things in microgravity, not zero-g microgravity, that are better than on earth.

[00:19:54] Natalya: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:19:54] Kate Watts: And there's some medical technologies and some other communications type technologies. And so if you think about how expensive it is to get things up to space-

[00:20:02] Natalya: Yes.

[00:20:02] Kate Watts: ... What we're essentially saying is there are things you can do that are so much better, that it's worth the expense to manufacture them in space. And we've just begun to learn about these things.

[00:20:14] Natalya: Yes.

[00:20:14] Kate Watts: And there will be more. It's a platform. Space is going to be a platform to discover these things that benefit us. And it's just like the iPhone, right? It's a platform for... who would've ever envisioned all the apps that people would build.

[00:20:27] Natalya: Right.

[00:20:27] Kate Watts: Right? And the, all the things we could do. And so when people think about why are we bothering to spend money and go it's because there always have been, and will continue to be you, unique things that improve our lives here.

[00:20:40] And the other thing I wanted to mention is there's something called the overview effect that astronauts talk about. It's very common. What the overview effect is, as they describe it, is this sort of cognitive shift in awareness and perspective of seeing planet earth as a whole, and being struck with, sort of a oneness of humanity. I am one of, you know, I'm an earthling.

[00:21:05] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:21:05] Kate Watts: Right? It blurs the lines of what country you're from or what your culture or background may be. And seeing the fragility of earth sort of as this thing we need to protect and take care of. You know, that shift they describe, that's pretty, that's pretty unbelievable-

[00:21:19] Natalya: Profound.

[00:21:20] Kate Watts: ... and profound.

[00:21:20] Natalya: And permanent, I've heard.

[00:21:22] Kate Watts: Yes.

[00:21:22] Natalya: Once you have that happen to you.

[00:21:24] Kate Watts: That's exactly right.

[00:21:25] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:21:25] Kate Watts: And so just imagine if millions of people, and one day, hopefully, billions of people, could have that same perspective. How would that change how we treat each other, how we think about life, how we approach things? It's nearly impossible to even envision all of the ways in which that could positively impact life.

[00:21:47] Natalya: And it would be potentially a paradigm changer for humanity, as you said, in how they cooperate, how they work together and how they see everything as interconnected.

[00:21:56] Kate Watts: Right.

[00:21:57] Natalya: And so you're saying that alone is why we go there.

[00:22:01] Kate Watts: I think so. I think so. And we've just scratched the surface. You know, that's what excites me. And I know a lot of the folks in the industry who are just close enough to it, that they're aware of those things. They see those things. And then, you know, the full circle. It's the capabilities to do it. It's not an impossible problem. We can do it. We know how. We're working on these structural capabilities.

[00:22:21] You know, Lockheed is, like we talked about mobility, space, nuclear, we're working on habitation technologies to protect people, whether it's in orbit, whether it's on the moon or on Mars, communications. So given a little time and, you know, the funding to do so. And now there's multiple avenues, right? With which to, to come up with that. We'll solve these problems and we will go.

[00:22:42] Natalya: Ironically, everything that you've mentioned, going to space, you get up to space and there's just more earth up there, right? More ground, regolith. When we get people up there, they're gonna start developing, as you said, based on these tech technologies, their own colonies. Does that mean that the virtuous cycle of innovation you've been talking about becomes discreet to the moon? And what does that mean? Does it still help earth or does it become a whole other...

[00:23:09] Kate Watts: Yes. Great question. So it's really interesting how this can play out. So as you mentioned, right? The moon, for example, has certain resources available. And some of those are known and some of those will... You know, there's a lot of science that we need to do at the moon to map and understand what all is there. And there may be things that surprise us, that could be useful, right?

[00:23:28] Mars ha- has other resources, right? It's not exactly the same as earth or the moon. You can tell that by looking at it, right? It's a different color. There's different the levels of gravity. There's gonna be different elements that can be extracted from the Martian soil versus the lunar regolith. You know, you're gonna need the water ice, in each location, for example. But then think about asteroids, right? Those have completely different materials and properties on 'em. And it depends on the asteroid and where it's coming from.

[00:23:55] But the facts are we know now, through recent science, that the universe is full of the same building blocks and foundational things that we see here on earth. And so each location has different things. And so eventually, fast forward quite a bit, right? And what I think we'll see are operations on the moon, on Mars, on other celestial bodies, on asteroids to mine, if you will, or to look for what resources are available, that's the science, and then be able to extract those and utilize 'em.

[00:24:28] And there'll be a supply chain in space. Some of it may be sent back to earth, beneficial for earth, but a lot of it will be used to support the economy in space, the developments or the settlements in space. And so the people who are working and living there.

[00:24:42] Natalya: So supply routes?

[00:24:43] Kate Watts: Absolutely.

[00:24:44] Natalya: Okay.

[00:24:45] Kate Watts: And so you need a lot of these same infrastructure pieces that we've been talking about to do that. You'll have to have vastly larger communications networks, satellite relays and enhanced types of communication technologies, which is one thing we're developing now. So we'll need, enhanced propulsion. For example, nuclear thermal propulsion. Which is also something we're, developing now. Chemical propulsion is what exists today.

[00:25:07] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:25:07] Kate Watts: And it has certain limitations. And ultimately, we will move to different generations of technology of propulsion that'll allow you to get there much more efficiently, much quicker, and more effectively. So there will be trade routes, right? Moving supplies around. Because that will be cheaper-

[00:25:25] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:25:25] Kate Watts: ... than launching them up. The economics drive everything, right?

[00:25:29] Natalya: They do. They always have, right?

[00:25:31] Kate Watts: Yes. Yes.

[00:25:32] Natalya: So you're saying, yes, there will be trade routes between the moon and Mars, and things that we develop up on the lunar surface are still ma- a part of the virtuous cycle of innovation back to earth, but they are singular to the lunar economy, singular to the space economy, and potentially could even a moon rush from earth. Let's just say, this is a stretch, but there's a cure for disease up there that you can only get in zero gravity. Doctors would advise patients if it's economically feasible to go live on the moon, that kind of thing.

[00:26:03] Kate Watts: Maybe. That's part of what we're figuring out. I mean, it's... To the extent that we could get those benefits from doing something at lower earth orbit, you would do that, right? Versus all the way at the moon. And so that's part-

[00:26:14] Natalya: Right.

[00:26:14] Kate Watts: ... of the discussion, is, you know, what, would you really need to do at the moon that you couldn't do in lower earth orbit? There may be things, right?

[00:26:20] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:26:21] Kate Watts: But I think what we'll find is the moon is a proving ground, right? It's like camping in your backyard versus before you go all the way out to wherever you want to go. And so buying down risk by developing these technologies, testing these technologies, doing longer and longer missions-

[00:26:38] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:26:38] Kate Watts: ... where astronauts s-stay for longer periods of time and develop. You know, what are the operations that I need to be safe, and to survive in addition to the science, and to sort of play out what life would look like? A lot of that'll happen on the moon. And a big reason for that is, is buying down the risk for going other places, right? On to Mar- where you can get back in a couple of days, right? From the moon.

[00:26:59] Natalya: That's-

[00:26:59] Kate Watts: And maybe even less.

[00:27:00] Natalya: ... that's a fascinating idea that I think most people don't even think about. You think about the moon, it's as far away as Mars, but you're saying, no, it's a, you know, it's a stepping stone.

[00:27:08] Kate Watts: That's right. It takes a couple of days to get out there two or three days. It may take less in the future. And Mars takes eight months-

[00:27:16] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:27:16] Kate Watts: .. for example.

[00:27:16] Natalya: Until that new propulsion is established, right?

[00:27:18] Kate Watts: That's right. That's right.

[00:27:20] Natalya: Nuclear propulsion has the ability to reduce that and to reduce the radiation risk and exposure that astronauts would face on the way to Mars. But does, but does the human body have the ability to survive nuclear propulsion?

[00:27:33] Kate Watts: Yes. So nuclear propulsion sounds really scary-

[00:27:37] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:27:37] Kate Watts: ... but it's actually... It's not. And it's not gonna be, dangerous, as dangerous as people would also think. How do you launch something that's nuclear?

[00:27:44] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:27:45] Kate Watts: And so the is actually much less based on the type of fuel that's used. And you wouldn't turn it on until you're, what's called the, to a nuclear-safe orbit. Right? So we'll see these capabilities. And there... Nuclear is scary to the public, certainly for a lot of reasons that are understood. But eventually I think will help people to see that's not a big concern. And that's actually gonna be a safer way to travel and to get to places.

[00:28:10] Natalya: And potentially more sustainable?

[00:28:11] Kate Watts: Yes. So, because it's faster-

[00:28:14] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:28:14] Kate Watts: ... because the travel time is reduced, I'll put it that way, it's going to be less, less expensive-

[00:28:19] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:28:19] Kate Watts: ... less risky. You'll need less consumables to go on a long journey, for example.

[00:28:23] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:28:24] Kate Watts: There are abort scenarios that are possible with nuclear propulsion versus traditional chemical propulsion. It's inherently a more effective technology for going to Mars, for example.

[00:28:34] Natalya: And we're working on that right here at Lockheed Martin?

[00:28:36] Kate Watts: We are, yes. It's pretty exciting stuff. So there's some work that's out there publicly, some contracts and things we're developing. There's some things I won't share, but yes, we are actively develop that. And I think that we can bring that capability to market much sooner than folks might realize.

[00:28:51] Natalya: Okay. So as an aside, I keep thinking warp speed from Star Wars, you know? Warp speed. Remember warp speed?

[00:28:56] Kate Watts: Right?

[00:28:56] Natalya: Yeah. So-

[00:28:58] Kate Watts: Warp drives?

[00:28:58] Natalya: [laughs]

[00:28:58] Kate Watts: Not quite that fast. Yeah.

[00:28:59] Natalya: All right. Well, backing into our final big question. This was about untethering from earth. You have painted two competing scenarios, which I think sound like they're gonna coexist. That is, yep, we're gonna get up there. We're gonna establish trade routes. We're gonna use the moon as a stepping stone. There'll be a Moon - Mars economy. There'll be facilities on the lunar surface that are providing technologies for everything from biotechnology to transportation, but all of it loops back to earth. So what does that mean about untethering from earth? Is there ever that scenario that happens?

[00:29:38] Kate Watts: So that's a, that's a great, a great way to put it. Yes, I think is the answer. The concept of untethering... You know, humanity has always expanded. Expanded their sort of frontier, right? And so that's really just what this is, it's an expansion of human's footprint. But to do that effectively, we will have to untether in the sense that we will need to find ways to meet all of those basic needs. And some of the higher level, you know, right? Hierarchy of needs that humanity has-

[00:30:08] Natalya: Mm-hmm [affirmative]

[00:30:09] Kate Watts: ... without everything having to come from earth. And the reason is that will make it more sustainable. That will be lower cost. That will be lower risk. That will be faster. Well, and so in a sense, we will have to untether, right? To do all those things. But as a result, humanity benefits. It's not that we'll have people in space who are experiencing something totally different and are now totally separate from the people on earth, right? It will just be a, an expansion.

[00:30:36] But I think that will provide a lift for all of humanity and awareness for all of humanity when they see that, okay, these things are possible. And now I want to go too. Or, now I'm inspired to, to view things differently. So there will always be a connection, is the point I'm trying to make.

[00:30:51] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:30:51] Kate Watts: But that requires untethering to a large degree. That requires all these new technologies that we're so excited about, and working on to develop here at Lockheed Martin.

[00:31:01] Natalya: And throughout this conversation, you have been talking about not just the science of the possible but the art of the possible. When you get up and go to work every day, with everything you touch and all the potential that you work with for where humanity goes next, what makes you most excited about that?

[00:31:18] Kate Watts: Yeah. What makes me excited is to see how possible it is. You know, all of this is not a hundred years in the future. These things we've talked about are largely doable with the next generation of technologies. With many of the technologies we have today and with the next generation that we are working on now, many of these things will have within 10 years. And so it is the will to go, right? It is the pull to go, the funding to go. And so I think we'll do these things So it's, how possible and near-term it is. It's the passion of folks who see the benefits. And for me personally, thinking about it a lot, I see the benefits that I think humanity will get. And so being able to communicate those and knowing how it will benefit folks' lives on earth, and how it will change and shape perspectives. That's what gets me, excited.

[00:32:08] And it brings international communities together. It motivates young people. It truly does change and shape perspectives. And so when I think about what's possible, it, we're really only limited by our imaginations. And what we see, just like on earth, is this accelerating rate of technology development. And I think we will have leaps that will surprise us, right? And then leaps upon those.

[00:32:35] And the future is, it will be here sooner than we think, I guess is the way to say it. So that's what gets me excited to come to work every day, is how do we pull that in? You know, make that happen even faster.

[00:32:46] Natalya: I'm excited to see that future as well. And following up on everything that we've discussed, what's really clear to me is that it's not only based on these remarkable technologies that are advancing so quickly, but the human will and the human qualities that all of civilization will bring to this next step. Like a sense of wonder, a sense of creativity, a sense of vision, and also bravery.

[00:33:11] Kate Watts: Absolutely.

[00:33:12] Natalya: Yeah.

[00:33:12] Kate Watts: Thank you.

[00:33:13] Natalya: Thank you, Kate. So I've been speaking with Kate Watts for Space Makers about untethering from earth and all of the new things that we will find when we do that.

[00:33:21] Kate Watts: Thanks so much for having me

[00:33:22] Natalya: Great to have you. Thank you.

[00:33:24] We are closer than we think for humankind to have the ability to untether from Earth. To make this future a reality, we learned that we will need more efficient ways to leave Earth, faster ways to travel through space, harnessing the power of water, and create advanced ways to communicate.

[00:33:44] Our next episode focuses on a different approach to untethering humans from Earth. Maybe it looks more like tethering space to Earth. Our next episode looks at how Earth will be brought along as humans become an off-planet species.

[00:34:00] Host: You've been listening to Kate Watts who is a space maker. Whether you're a software engineer, systems, engineer, finance, or HR professional, we need space makers like you to make the seemingly impossible missions a reality. Please visit this episode’s show notes to learn more about what you just heard in this episode or the careers available at Lockheed Martin. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe so others can find us and follow along for more out of this world stories. To learn more about our missions, products and people, follow our new Twitter handle @LMSpace and visit lockheedmartin.com/space. Join us on the next episode as we introduce you to more space makers.

[00:34:46] Space Makers is a production of Lockheed Martin Space.

[00:34:50] It's executive produced by Pavan Desai.

[00:34:52] Senior producer is Natalya Oleksik.

[00:34:54] Senior producer, writer, and host is Ben Dinsmore.

[00:34:57] Editor is Adam Mattivi.

[00:34:59] Sound design and audio mastered by Julian Giraldo.

[00:35:02] Graphic design by Tim Roesch.

[00:35:04] Marketing and recruiting by Joe Portnoy, Shannon Myers, Mallory Richardson, and Stephanie Dixon.

[00:35:09] A huge thanks to all the communication professionals at Lockheed Martin who helped make these stories possible.

[00:35:16] Thanks for joining us and see you next time.